{"id":1490,"date":"2010-10-27T06:13:13","date_gmt":"2010-10-27T13:13:13","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.tgdarkly.com\/blog\/?p=1490"},"modified":"2010-10-27T06:13:13","modified_gmt":"2010-10-27T13:13:13","slug":"the-day-metallica-came-to-church-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/2010\/10\/27\/the-day-metallica-came-to-church-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"The Day Metallica Came to Church — Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"

This is the second and final part of my interview with John Van Sloten, author of The Day Metallica Came to Church<\/a>.\u00a0 The first part of the interview is here<\/a>.
\n\u00a0
\nDave: So let’s talk a bit about theology for a moment.\u00a0 In Chapter 3, you use the term “co-illumination.”\u00a0 What are you getting at here?\u00a0 How does this idea relate to the classical locus of authority for Protestant Christians — sola scriptura?<\/strong><\/p>\n

John:\u00a0 Co-illumination occurs when either of God\u2019s two books (creation or the Bible) shines light onto the other; resulting in a fuller\/deeper understanding of God\u2019s truth. The underlying assumption is that we need both books, synergistically co-illumining one another, in order to fully understand what God is revealing. While the Bible uses words to describe how the heavens declare the glory of God (Ps 19), the Hubble Space Telescope gives us a picture of what one of the 100 billion galaxies in our known universe actually looks like. Once we\u2019ve seen Hubble\u2019s amazing images the psalm can never be the same. In fact it might even feel 100 billion times more powerful. Nor will looking at Jupiter while on Canada\u2019s remote Galiano Island ever be the same. Because I know the truth of the psalm I now have more with which to see God\u2019s face beyond the solar system\u2019s sacred page. The revelation of God is most fully experienced as we read his words with both reading glasses and a telescope.\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0\u00a0<\/p>\n

For me, the experience of co-illumination has been the most amazing part of this theological journey.\u00a0 I can read about God\u2019s anger in the Old Testament, and I may be able to imagine what it is like.\u00a0 But when I feel it, at a heart trembling 120db at a raging Metallica concert, as the band gets angry about the same things God does, I\u2019m totally blown away.\u00a0 I can read Psalm 34:8 and get a sense of what the psalmist is talking about, but there was something about the amazing Persian meal I shared with friends\u2019 last night that really helped me taste and see that God is good.\u00a0 We are multi-sensory beings. And I believe that God means to engage all of our senses, via two books, both at the same time.<\/p>\n

Sola Scriptura.\u00a0 To me, the Bible is the book that best brings Jesus close. Through written words it clearly communicates the gospel. The message of Jesus is most perspicuous here. So I strongly believe in scripture as the final authority for faith and life, and that without it (as Calvin taught) I am unable to see God\u2019s revelation in creation. But being the final authority doesn\u2019t make it the only authority. So what Sola Scriptura brings to the ideas that I\u2019m living with is a measuring stick, a ruler, and a compass. On any given Sunday in our church I always preach from both books (they keep each other honest). And if a creational truth doesn\u2019t correlate with a biblical truth, then I need to keep searching for the connection.\u00a0 If it\u2019s not there, I back off.\u00a0 My experience though, has been that the connection is most often there. In fact, I\u2019m convinced that every biblical truth has a creational twin (several).<\/p>\n

Dave:\u00a0 Later on in the book you talk about one of those great theologian-sounding Latin terms, sensus divinitatus.\u00a0 What do you mean by that?\u00a0 How does it relate to what we might learn about God from culture?<\/strong><\/p>\n

John:\u00a0 Simply stated it\u2019s the sense of the divine that God has built into each of us; a homing beacon of sorts. According to Calvin, God has implanted an inherent understanding and awareness of himself into every person. This awareness, Calvin writes, is, \u201cengraven indelibly on our very way of human being,\u201d meaning that we \u201ccannot open [our] eyes without being compelled to see him.\u201d\u00a0<\/p>\n

Often the sensus divinitatus is expressed through our yearnings and desires. God built desires into us that are meant to be ultimately met in Him. So when we yearn for a vicarious experience of glory through a World Series game, in a very real sense we\u2019re being who God made us to be, although not fully.\u00a0 We still need to get the to point where we realize that our ultimate glory comes as we vicariously enter into the victory that Christ has won for us. So the intense desire we see on all those October ballpark fan faces is indeed a God given desire.\u00a0<\/p>\n

How does this help me learn to discern God\u2019s truth through the culture?\u00a0 Basically you identify the particular manifestation of the sensus divinitatus (a desire for victory, community, security, love, meaning, comfort, intimacy, beauty, peace, satisfaction, joy, justice, hope, unity, respect, rest, adventure, a sense of belonging, of mattering, or of being found) and you do three things. First, you name it as a God given gift; thereby honouring both that deeply meaningful and compelling yearning and God.\u00a0 Second, you describe how God is the ultimate answer to all of our yearnings and desires.\u00a0 God is victory, community, security, intimacy, etc\u2026 Third, you help people make the move from the mere foretaste that a World Series game, a good adventure film, or great sex can bring, to the real thing that is victory, adventure and union with Christ.\u00a0
\n\u00a0
\nDave:\u00a0 For me, one of the most interesting examples you give is from the world of fashion.\u00a0 Fashion!\u00a0 Whenever I’ve heard a preacher mention fashion — which is exceedingly rare! — it’s been with raised eyebrows and a reference to 1 Tim. 2:9.\u00a0 And I think we have to admit, the world of fashion thrives on some of the deadly sins — Lust, Greed, Envy, and Pride.\u00a0 How does sin factor in to your theological reading of culture?<\/strong><\/p>\n

John:\u00a0 Yeah, the church has been good at citing Paul and forgetting Esther (who\u2019s Persian haute couture saved a nation!). Why does the church always have to be known for what it is against? Shouldn\u2019t we, as people of God, also be known for what we are for? Of course there is always a balance\u2026 with hemlines probably somewhere around the knee!<\/p>\n

Where is the sensus divinitatus at work in fashion?\u00a0 (I know, you didn\u2019t ask Dave)\u00a0 I see three of our deepest yearnings being expressed; the desire to be seen, to be beautiful, and to be perfect. God sees us (\u201cYou are the God who sees me\u201d \u2013 Hagar). Through Christ we are beautiful in his sight and one day we will be perfect again.\u00a0<\/p>\n

And what about sin?\u00a0 It\u2019s everywhere; perverting, twisting, polluting, and distorting God\u2019s good creation. So the key in all of this reading culture stuff is discernment. I rely a lot on community for that; both within and outside of our church. But I think it\u2019s important not to let sin have the final word in all of this.\u00a0 Christ won right? Even though we\u2019re in this now\/not yet time, victory is assured.\u00a0 And even though sin has infected everything, it doesn\u2019t fully destroy anything or anyone (Augustine). The bible speaks its inspired truth through a cast of sin-infected characters. I\u2019m thinking God is doing the same thing now.\u00a0
\n\u00a0
\nDave:\u00a0 Ok, to wrap up, back to praxis. You describe some of the “pushback” you’ve received as you’ve begun to preach from the book of culture.\u00a0 Tell us a bit about that. What challenges might a pastor who wants to exegete culture face?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Over the past few years there has been lots of theological debate, many exit interviews and countless sleepless nights (on my part).\u00a0 So you need thick skin and a hard head to do this.\u00a0 You also need patience and grace. I\u2019ve had prophetically judging phone messages, drive by Sunday morning shoutings, email threats and curses and quizzical looks from my mother, to name a few.\u00a0 To me there are three challenges; psychological (people don\u2019t like to change), theological (so far the vetting has gone well) and practical (how do you live these ideas out?).\u00a0 These are still early days in terms of testing this worldview out. There are a few more books to be written on this idea.\u00a0
\n\u00a0
\nDave:\u00a0 Aside from your book, what are some resources you might recommend for folks interested in seeing how God might be working in culture (tell us, for example, about the TED talks….)?<\/strong><\/p>\n

TED talks<\/a> have been a huge resource for me. World leading thinkers talking about the leading edges of what they are doing in fields of technology, entertainment and design; it\u2019s all very stimulating and strangely very much in line with what we talk about in our church.\u00a0<\/p>\n

To be honest I\u2019ve not found a lot of contemporary writing on this issue, nothing that pushes the ideas as far as we do anyways.\u00a0 Neal Plantinga\u2019s, Engaging God\u2019s World is wonderful, anything from Richard Mouw is great, Kuyper, Bavinck, Calvin, Augustine and Paul are also alright.\u00a0<\/p>\n

Lately, a few online resources have been very helpful for me; Comment Magazine<\/a>, Q\u00a0Ideas<\/a>, Catapult* Magazine<\/a>.\u00a0 In terms of seeing more examples of how this all plays out, I often send people to our church\u2019s website<\/a>.\u00a0 We\u2019ve got tons of video and audio of sermons based on films, bands, science, art, work, literature, nature, etc\u2026\u00a0 Beg, borrow and steal as much as you want.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

This is the second and final part of my interview with John Van Sloten, author of The Day Metallica Came to Church.\u00a0 The first part of the interview is here. \u00a0 Dave: So let’s talk a bit about theology for a moment.\u00a0 In Chapter 3, you use the term “co-illumination.”\u00a0 What are you getting at […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[14,4],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1490","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-culture","category-spirituality"],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p824rZ-o2","jetpack-related-posts":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1490","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1490"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1490\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1490"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1490"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/davidopderbeck.com\/tgdarkly\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1490"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}